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welcome to skeptic oh where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics I think we have the right

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guest to fill that promise today dr.

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Jack hunter of Harrah anthropology Fame

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is joining us Jack welcome to sceptical

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welcome back thanks for joining me

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thanks for having me it's good to be

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back well you were on a while back with

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this very excellent book that I have up

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here on the video screen talking with

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the spirits extraordinary work and

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you've followed that up with a new book

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engaging the anomalous yes we're going

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to talk about we're going to talk about

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both of those but tell us a little bit

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about this new book and in general what

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it's about and all that good stuff

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yeah well this book is basically a

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collection of essays that I've written

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over the last seven years or so it's

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kind of written alongside my thesis so

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in a way is kind of like a mini mini

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version of my thesis my thesis actually

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takes parts of the chapters from this

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book and kind of expands on them and

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makes them a little bit more academic

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but really these are these are the

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essays that I was writing as I was

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trying to think through the whole

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process of writing my thesis right from

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the very beginning and they were all

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published in different kinds of journals

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for example the Society and the

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Association for the scientific study of

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anomalous phenomena their journal they

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were one of the first groups to kind of

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publish any of my writings though

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there's a few chapters in the book from

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there there's some other chapters that

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were one was published in the Journal of

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the Society for psychical research

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others were published in various

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magazines and different places like that

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so it's kind of like a hodgepodge of

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different of my thoughts I think it's

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you know we should also alert people

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remind people that you are the publisher

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editor of this excellent journal para

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anthropology which others so much packed

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even in that name there but I wanted to

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point this out because I thought it was

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so interesting George Hansen the

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trickster guy wrote the foreword to your

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book and I I loved this one little piece

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out of there he said here's a young guy

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who when he started his ph.d program

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eight years ago

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founded a journal para anthropology and

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he said quite audacious and I thought

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wow is it that kind of summit of your

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your you're such a cool guy a mellow guy

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I love the way you push these boundaries

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and and your mellow but you're

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incredibly audacious to it is rather

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audacious to say hey yeah I'm just gonna

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take anthropology turn it upside down

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kind of take it from this anomalous

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parapsychology para anthropology kind of

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perspective and yeah that's just what

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I'll do to start my PhD thesis eight

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years ago well the really the journal

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started because when I when it became

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interested in the possibility of an

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anthropological approach to the

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paranormal I was looking for academic

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journals different kinds of venues where

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anthropologists would be talking about

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these kinds of things and obviously I

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came across the parapsychology journals

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and the work of the Society for

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psychical research and then eventually I

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discovered the the journal for the

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Anthropology of consciousness seemed to

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be kind of like the most kind of fitting

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for what I was interested in but then

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when I started to read the journal

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itself I realized that over the years

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and this is something that other people

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have picked up on as well mark a role

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wrote a really good article about this

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called wither sigh in the Anthropology

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of consciousness and basically over the

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years the kind of more extreme kind of

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high strangeness weird paranormal kind

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of stuff had been expunged from the

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journal and they've gone down a much

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kind of safer route of thinking of

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the Anthropology of consciousness so

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what I wanted to do was kind of provide

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a forum where anthropologists could talk

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about those things that even the Society

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for the Anthropology of consciousness

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weren't really talking about anymore so

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you know everything from psy and super

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normal abilities through to UFOs and

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different kinds of entity encounters all

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sorts of things so that's really what

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the the kind of impetus for the journal

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was to open up the anthropological

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discussion to include all of the you

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know the extreme paranormal or the

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highly weird paranormal exome jack right

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up our alley here at skeptic Oh perfect

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home for this kind of work so you know

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what I thought we'd do we do next and

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this has been kind of the new format I'm

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playing out because let's just very

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quickly hit some definitions because I

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do hate the kind of inside baseball that

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leaves people on the sides we're gonna

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get into some pretty deep stuff but at a

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very high level anthropology yeah

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so in a nutshell anthropology is the

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study of human beings so Iten you can

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take that kind of really broadly and

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consider anthropology is the study of

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anything to do with humans a human

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cultures human societies human beliefs

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human experiences traditionally in

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academia anthropology's in split into

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four kind of sub disciplines so you've

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got social and cultural anthropology

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which is the study of human societies

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and cultures which is kind of my main

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area of anthropology so that includes

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all anthropology of religion and all of

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that kind of stuff

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we've got biological anthropology which

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is the study of human evolution it's a

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fairly kind of like a hardcore

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biological approach there's a linguistic

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anthropology which is obviously the

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study of human languages and then

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finally we've got archaeology which is

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the study of the past human

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civilizations so like I said mine my

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main my main area has been in the kind

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of social and cultural anthropology

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and in social and cultural anthropology

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the main research method is something

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called ethnography which is all to do

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with going into different societies or

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different social settings and kind of

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participating it on first-person level

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and then writing about that afterwards

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and actually it's that process of

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ethnography that kind of has ultimately

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opened anthropology up to all of these

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other these new different kinds of

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domains of research great awesome that

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is so important I think that

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introduction because it also explains

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okay so here's a guy Jack hunter that

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says well you know there is this group

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right down the road from me and Bristol

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here who sits and does meet in

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communication and you know trance medium

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it does all this crazy stuff let's go

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sit with them well that's an

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anthropologist would go sit with them

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and talk with them so that opens up that

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door and at the same time explain again

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very briefly at a very high level some

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of the natural and some of the very

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justifiable criticisms or concerns that

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people have had about anthropology and

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kind of the observer effect if you will

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you know that that can you really go

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observe and do you become a part of it

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so just at a very high level just that

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that any anthropology student would kind

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of get keeping all that for me so

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thinking about the kind of the role of

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the observer anthropology again is

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unique among the sciences really some

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people consider it to be the most

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scientific of the arts and the least

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scientific of the sciences because our

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main scientific tool in ethnography is

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our and body and the way we participate

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in the social and cultural environments

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that we find ourselves in so

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automatically you have this kind of a

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problem it's been a problem throughout

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the history of anthropology of how

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objectives our research tools so it

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we're kind of in there from the very

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beginning and this has led to something

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called a kind of like a taboo

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anthropology against what has been

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called going native so if you spend too

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much time with a particular group it's

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thought that you can lose your

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objectivity but actually one of the

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things that's arisen out of my own

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research into anthropology and the

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Anthropology of the paranormal is that

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it's only through losing our objectivity

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really that we can begin to fully

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understand what's going on in these

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situations so I don't tip your hand too

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much keep good on the level next

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definition next word para Anthropology

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and we need to kind of keep it at that

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high level but then hint at why we

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really don't want parrot anything right

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we don't really want para but that's the

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word we're stuck with but first well how

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have you used that term coined that term

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in your journal and what does it mean

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for someone who runs across it for the

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first time one of the ways I tend to

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think about power anthropology is you

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think about parapsychology it's a

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discipline that deals with phenomena

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that are not fully explained by the

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mainstream laws of other mainstream

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explanatory models of psychology okay so

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we're dealing with things like you know

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telepathy and sighin things which

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mainstream materialist psychology says

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can't exist but then the data seems to

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suggest that it does so with

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anthropology what we're interested in or

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with parent apology rather what we're

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interested in is phenomena that the

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dominant models the dominant explanatory

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frameworks of anthropology are not able

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to fully explain so sorry the dominant

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models that we've got are things like

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social functionalism and biomedical

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reductionism and all of these kinds of

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things these are the like the cognitive

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approach again these are the dominant

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explanatory frameworks that are used in

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anthropology but then when we come to

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analyze things like spirit mediumship or

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different kinds of parenting of

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paranormal phenomena we find that those

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two frameworks don't really work they

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don't match the data and they don't

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really tell us anything about what's

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going on so that's where I think parent

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Rapala G is it's a it's a dealing with

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phenomena that anthropology mainstream

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anthropology doesn't really have an

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adequate explanation for great ontology

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when we talk about ontology we can take

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it in two different ways

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we can take it in the philosophical

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sense of an inquiry or a study into the

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nature of being so thinking about what

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exists and then we can take it in the

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kind of anthropological sense as

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referring to kind of like a set of

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things that a particular group of people

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holds that exists if that makes sense so

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some people have said that when we talk

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about an ontology in anthropology what

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we're really talking about is it's just

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another word for culture or worldview

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but actually it's more than that we're

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not just talking about beliefs that

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we're talking about kind of whole well

278
00:12:09,090 --> 00:12:07,569
Mazzoni in' shamanic Society for example

279
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is going to contain a whole load of

280
00:12:18,210 --> 00:12:13,000
other kinds of entities beings different

281
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kinds of things to a kind of Western

282
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materialist ontology

283
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so yeah that's what an ontology is it's

284
00:12:27,980 --> 00:12:25,899
a it's the the sum of all the things

285
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that exists within a particular

286
00:12:37,650 --> 00:12:35,110
framework awesome 40n okay yeah this is

287
00:12:39,689 --> 00:12:37,660
a really important one for me because

288
00:12:42,090 --> 00:12:39,699
like as I was saying when I found it

289
00:12:44,939 --> 00:12:42,100
parent apology journal I wanted to focus

290
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:44,949
on those kind of more high strangeness

291
00:12:52,139 --> 00:12:48,160
kinds of things and the 14 approach

292
00:12:53,999 --> 00:12:52,149
provides a a nice kind of method it

293
00:12:56,129 --> 00:12:54,009
gives us a way of thinking about those

294
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:56,139
without bracketing them out in the way

295
00:13:01,650 --> 00:12:58,959
that social sciences have tended to do

296
00:13:03,629 --> 00:13:01,660
in the past and just make sure so in

297
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case people don't know quickly cover who

298
00:13:09,809 --> 00:13:07,990
charles fort was in he was a writer in

299
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the kind of towards the tail end of the

300
00:13:15,090 --> 00:13:12,970
19th century and he wrote these four

301
00:13:17,780 --> 00:13:15,100
books which were basically collect

302
00:13:19,710 --> 00:13:17,790
of all of these accounts of strange

303
00:13:21,930 --> 00:13:19,720
unusual phenomena that he'd found

304
00:13:24,990 --> 00:13:21,940
documented in various scientific

305
00:13:26,250 --> 00:13:25,000
journals and newspapers and things so he

306
00:13:28,860 --> 00:13:26,260
gathered all of these things together

307
00:13:32,820 --> 00:13:28,870
and he called them his damned facts

308
00:13:34,380 --> 00:13:32,830
these things that science is so your

309
00:13:36,210 --> 00:13:34,390
video cut out so I'll use that

310
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:36,220
opportunity to kind of interject and

311
00:13:40,380 --> 00:13:38,560
just we in a couple examples I mean the

312
00:13:42,860 --> 00:13:40,390
raining frogs and this kind of stuff

313
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:42,870
which we can't get around the fact that

314
00:13:49,350 --> 00:13:45,970
this is documented this is in the news

315
00:13:51,210 --> 00:13:49,360
that we can correlate it with other news

316
00:13:52,860 --> 00:13:51,220
events this seems to be an accurate

317
00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:52,870
reporting of what's going on at this

318
00:13:55,710 --> 00:13:54,310
time and they said there was a solar

319
00:13:58,590 --> 00:13:55,720
eclipse there was a solar eclipse they

320
00:14:00,720 --> 00:13:58,600
said these these hoards invaded and they

321
00:14:03,330 --> 00:14:00,730
invaded and right along beside that they

322
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:03,340
have hey you know all these farmers out

323
00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:05,890
in the field observed the frogs you know

324
00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:08,110
fly from the soap why would we dismiss

325
00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:09,700
one account than another and that was

326
00:14:13,860 --> 00:14:12,310
kind of charles fort saying yeah why

327
00:14:16,460 --> 00:14:13,870
would we we can't let's just at least

328
00:14:18,090 --> 00:14:16,470
record these right do you want it yes

329
00:14:20,370 --> 00:14:18,100
yeah exactly

330
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:20,380
he's just saying that there's all of

331
00:14:25,670 --> 00:14:22,330
this stuff that happens out in the world

332
00:14:29,610 --> 00:14:25,680
that our scientific models have actively

333
00:14:32,190 --> 00:14:29,620
ignored for the past you know 200 300

334
00:14:35,310 --> 00:14:32,200
odd years and he thinks that they've

335
00:14:36,780 --> 00:14:35,320
been pushed aside so that we know for

336
00:14:38,610 --> 00:14:36,790
whatever reason because they don't fit

337
00:14:41,070 --> 00:14:38,620
in with our established models or

338
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:41,080
whatever and really what he wants us to

339
00:14:46,770 --> 00:14:43,810
do is challenged science with all of

340
00:14:49,950 --> 00:14:46,780
this damned data to put it on the table

341
00:14:51,660 --> 00:14:49,960
again and also to encourage us to think

342
00:14:54,210 --> 00:14:51,670
about things in slightly different ways

343
00:14:56,450 --> 00:14:54,220
so one of the things that I've taken

344
00:15:00,360 --> 00:14:56,460
motion charles fort is his idea of

345
00:15:02,340 --> 00:15:00,370
intermediate ism which is his kind of

346
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:02,350
philosophical perspective on the nature

347
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:04,090
of reality as opposed you could can you

348
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:07,120
could call it his ontology really and he

349
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:11,290
says that everything kind of exists on a

350
00:15:17,370 --> 00:15:14,170
spectrum or kind of like on a sliding

351
00:15:19,830 --> 00:15:17,380
scale between realness on the one hand

352
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:19,840
and unreal miss on the other so that

353
00:15:23,790 --> 00:15:21,330
everything that exists in the world

354
00:15:25,290 --> 00:15:23,800
exists somewhere on this spectrum which

355
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:25,300
basically means that anything that

356
00:15:30,060 --> 00:15:27,450
exists is

357
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:30,070
not a bunch of sent real and it's not

358
00:15:36,210 --> 00:15:33,370
100% unreal as well awesome

359
00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:36,220
so here's what I want to go next and I

360
00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:37,750
gave you a heads up on this beforehand

361
00:15:43,740 --> 00:15:40,480
you did an interview not too long ago

362
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:43,750
with the very excellent Gordon white and

363
00:15:50,940 --> 00:15:47,050
the interview you guys did was terrific

364
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:50,950
and I thought it could also serve as

365
00:15:56,610 --> 00:15:54,730
tremendous springboard to our discussion

366
00:15:58,620 --> 00:15:56,620
because so many of the top because you

367
00:16:00,450 --> 00:15:58,630
brought up in that interview are things

368
00:16:02,340 --> 00:16:00,460
that I want to talk about and also I

369
00:16:04,620 --> 00:16:02,350
love this idea of interleaving these

370
00:16:06,990 --> 00:16:04,630
important conversations that people are

371
00:16:08,370 --> 00:16:07,000
having through shows like Gordon's and

372
00:16:10,590 --> 00:16:08,380
seeing if we can take it to the next

373
00:16:12,510 --> 00:16:10,600
level because I always hate starting at

374
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:12,520
Ground Zero like we always have to do

375
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:14,650
rather and say hey here's what came up

376
00:16:21,530 --> 00:16:16,930
for me when you guys were talking so

377
00:16:24,390 --> 00:16:21,540
with your permission let me play into

378
00:16:27,540 --> 00:16:24,400
listeners so they can hear it a clip

379
00:16:31,050 --> 00:16:27,550
from that interview that you did with

380
00:16:34,380 --> 00:16:31,060
Gordon and then we can kind of chat

381
00:16:35,460 --> 00:16:34,390
about that as a launching off point into

382
00:16:35,970 --> 00:16:35,470
a number of things that we're going to

383
00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:35,980
talk about

384
00:16:40,829 --> 00:16:38,710
there's no we're trying to think of how

385
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:40,839
we could frame it cuz I thought of other

386
00:16:45,270 --> 00:16:43,570
terms before there are terms like a post

387
00:16:46,829 --> 00:16:45,280
secular anthropology and all these

388
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:46,839
different ones but really they're all

389
00:16:51,750 --> 00:16:49,510
talking about kind of the same thing it

390
00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:51,760
hasn't kind of crystallized yet to I

391
00:16:57,570 --> 00:16:55,510
mean I just think it needs a barrel roll

392
00:17:00,570 --> 00:16:57,580
because paranormals besides super

393
00:17:02,310 --> 00:17:00,580
ysabel's matter isn't both I think you

394
00:17:02,550 --> 00:17:02,320
just need to go do you know what [\h__\h]

395
00:17:04,620 --> 00:17:02,560
you

396
00:17:08,429 --> 00:17:04,630
it's animus anthropology that's what it

397
00:17:11,579 --> 00:17:08,439
is I'm just what it is okay so there's

398
00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:11,589
some really cool stuff there that we can

399
00:17:20,970 --> 00:17:16,420
talk about first of all I love Gordon's

400
00:17:23,460 --> 00:17:20,980
barrel roll I do that's just just very

401
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:23,470
cool and then I love when you guys get

402
00:17:28,350 --> 00:17:26,530
into you know you take the ontology

403
00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:28,360
thing that we just talked about and then

404
00:17:33,210 --> 00:17:30,670
you've got about her maybe Gordon what

405
00:17:35,910 --> 00:17:33,220
he does you know ontological flooding

406
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:35,920
and I just thought wow isn't this a cool

407
00:17:43,690 --> 00:17:39,650
kind of level three conversation but I

408
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:43,700
to jump in on and talk about and but

409
00:17:49,660 --> 00:17:46,310
maybe you can frame up for people who

410
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:49,670
aren't really getting what that's all

411
00:17:54,220 --> 00:17:52,490
about tell them what it's all about

412
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:54,230
because I think it's right gets right to

413
00:17:58,510 --> 00:17:56,930
the heart of where you're at what you've

414
00:18:01,660 --> 00:17:58,520
done some of the most exciting things

415
00:18:02,950 --> 00:18:01,670
about this book in your work in general

416
00:18:07,150 --> 00:18:02,960
but what are you guys talking about

417
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:07,160
there ontological flooding is the term

418
00:18:13,540 --> 00:18:10,730
that I've developed for my kind of

419
00:18:16,540 --> 00:18:13,550
approach to thinking about all of these

420
00:18:17,710 --> 00:18:16,550
competing explanations I don't really

421
00:18:19,570 --> 00:18:17,720
think of them even as competing

422
00:18:22,810 --> 00:18:19,580
estimation it's just explanations that

423
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:22,820
give us snippets of the truth can i

424
00:18:27,730 --> 00:18:25,010
interject something in there jack yeah

425
00:18:32,590 --> 00:18:27,740
cuz you know this discussion that you

426
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:32,600
guys had actually spurred some creative

427
00:18:36,940 --> 00:18:34,610
thoughts for me and that played into

428
00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:36,950
another interview that I just did with

429
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:37,940
Chris Knowles

430
00:18:41,410 --> 00:18:39,530
and let me talk you down that path

431
00:18:44,740 --> 00:18:41,420
because it's kind of interesting because

432
00:18:47,490 --> 00:18:44,750
when you say ontological flooding you're

433
00:18:51,010 --> 00:18:47,500
really contrasting that I think with

434
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:51,020
ontological bracketing yeah it says

435
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:52,730
bracketing which is always should only

436
00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:54,530
understand it this way we should only

437
00:18:57,850 --> 00:18:56,390
understand it this way so this

438
00:19:01,420 --> 00:18:57,860
conversation I'm having with Chris

439
00:19:04,300 --> 00:19:01,430
Knowles and he's talking about the New

440
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:04,310
York City gala and how the Catholic

441
00:19:09,610 --> 00:19:06,710
Church has somehow created this crazy

442
00:19:12,970 --> 00:19:09,620
thing where they're loaning items to

443
00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:12,980
this basically Luciferian kind of

444
00:19:16,540 --> 00:19:15,710
festival and all this crazy stuff and I

445
00:19:20,650 --> 00:19:16,550
said wait a minute

446
00:19:23,230 --> 00:19:20,660
this is reality bracketing this is on

447
00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:23,240
one hand saying oh this is just fashion

448
00:19:27,310 --> 00:19:25,310
don't worry about it it's just fashion

449
00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:27,320
and on another level it's saying well no

450
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:29,840
this is spiritual this is about the

451
00:19:35,170 --> 00:19:32,330
church oh this is political this is

452
00:19:38,770 --> 00:19:35,180
about the Pope and Catholicism although

453
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:38,780
this is about mind control and culture

454
00:19:45,820 --> 00:19:43,010
shaping its reality bracketing and I was

455
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:45,830
drawn in that direction because of this

456
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:48,410
conversation that you and Gordon had and

457
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:52,010
I think the parallels are important to

458
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:53,570
me and I think they can

459
00:19:59,080 --> 00:19:56,330
be drawn out in a way that you're taking

460
00:20:01,390 --> 00:19:59,090
it from an antelope from act more of an

461
00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:01,400
academic thing but it's the same thing

462
00:20:06,730 --> 00:20:04,310
when you say ontological bracketing

463
00:20:08,830 --> 00:20:06,740
you're talking about reality bracketing

464
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:08,840
you're talking about getting into a

465
00:20:14,890 --> 00:20:12,050
certain blinders mode where you say oh

466
00:20:17,620 --> 00:20:14,900
no I can only look at this culture

467
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:17,630
through this lens and I must not look at

468
00:20:23,950 --> 00:20:19,970
any of this other stuff that's going on

469
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:23,960
and what I think you're saying is no we

470
00:20:30,340 --> 00:20:27,200
need to look at what's going on from all

471
00:20:32,590 --> 00:20:30,350
these different realities and we need to

472
00:20:35,290 --> 00:20:32,600
look at them all at the same time which

473
00:20:38,980 --> 00:20:35,300
is even more difficult and we need to

474
00:20:40,810 --> 00:20:38,990
break through the 40 n'dam which I think

475
00:20:43,150 --> 00:20:40,820
you have a great thing about the damn

476
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:43,160
damn thing so I just want to set the

477
00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:45,170
table with all that stuff and thank you

478
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:47,120
guys for kind of teeing that whole thing

479
00:20:51,850 --> 00:20:49,490
up for me but ontological bracketing

480
00:20:55,660 --> 00:20:51,860
reality bracketing reality flooding

481
00:20:58,090 --> 00:20:55,670
ontological flooding let's go yeah so

482
00:21:00,490 --> 00:20:58,100
again I think what really comes out of

483
00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:00,500
this idea of ontological flooding is the

484
00:21:08,410 --> 00:21:04,370
idea that we need to embrace complexity

485
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:08,420
and not be so kind of set in our ways

486
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:10,730
went on with trying to find simple

487
00:21:15,340 --> 00:21:13,520
explanations for things so the example

488
00:21:16,870 --> 00:21:15,350
that I used to explain ontological

489
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:16,880
flooding a lot of the time is with

490
00:21:21,790 --> 00:21:19,610
spirit mediumship where you have all of

491
00:21:24,490 --> 00:21:21,800
these competing explanations which think

492
00:21:26,950 --> 00:21:24,500
that they've sorted it all out that so

493
00:21:28,450 --> 00:21:26,960
you could know like I said for social

494
00:21:29,770 --> 00:21:28,460
protest theories that say that the

495
00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:29,780
spirit mediumship is all about social

496
00:21:35,230 --> 00:21:33,110
protest and then you've got biological

497
00:21:38,380 --> 00:21:35,240
medical theories that say that spirit

498
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:38,390
mediumship is just you know a biological

499
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:41,090
aberration it's some kind of an illness

500
00:21:45,330 --> 00:21:43,490
or a disease there's the psychodynamic

501
00:21:48,010 --> 00:21:45,340
theories all sorts of different theories

502
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:48,020
but at the end of the day none of them

503
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:49,730
is a completely satisfying explanation

504
00:21:54,940 --> 00:21:52,610
in themselves and actually when you

505
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:54,950
start to piece them all together you see

506
00:21:58,420 --> 00:21:56,090
that we're dealing with something that

507
00:22:00,850 --> 00:21:58,430
is is way more complex than any of those

508
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:00,860
individual explanatory frameworks has

509
00:22:06,090 --> 00:22:04,130
been able to kind of accommodate so

510
00:22:07,570 --> 00:22:06,100
ontological flooding is really saying as

511
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:07,580
and as you

512
00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:09,290
saying that we need to take into account

513
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:12,080
all of these various perspectives at the

514
00:22:17,230 --> 00:22:14,450
same time to get the best kind of or

515
00:22:20,020 --> 00:22:17,240
than the nearest to reality kind of

516
00:22:24,550 --> 00:22:20,030
perspectives that we can get would you

517
00:22:28,090 --> 00:22:24,560
also be open to the idea that we need to

518
00:22:30,820 --> 00:22:28,100
exercise some discernment there because

519
00:22:33,250 --> 00:22:30,830
there's a sometimes especially in

520
00:22:34,690 --> 00:22:33,260
academia and anthropology I'm sure is

521
00:22:37,060 --> 00:22:34,700
not immune to this

522
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:37,070
there's the move towards relativism it's

523
00:22:41,770 --> 00:22:39,200
then we're gonna let them all in at the

524
00:22:44,140 --> 00:22:41,780
same level because they're all valid

525
00:22:47,260 --> 00:22:44,150
views it's like now [\h__\h] and as a

526
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:47,270
matter of fact what's even maybe

527
00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:49,250
interesting from this conspiratorial

528
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:52,370
angle maybe some of it is misinformation

529
00:22:56,890 --> 00:22:55,250
maybe some of it is intentionally

530
00:22:57,580 --> 00:22:56,900
designed to lead us in the wrong

531
00:23:01,030 --> 00:22:57,590
direction

532
00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:01,040
we were talking a minute ago about the

533
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:03,710
trickster himself or the trickster out

534
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:06,410
there George Hansen and he has to leave

535
00:23:11,530 --> 00:23:08,210
open the possibility that that

536
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:11,540
misinformation head-fake it may be going

537
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:13,250
on at a bunch of different levels it may

538
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:15,200
be going on at the spiritual level that

539
00:23:18,820 --> 00:23:17,360
we don't understand in addition to

540
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:18,830
definitely being going on from a

541
00:23:29,380 --> 00:23:24,650
cultural shaping MK ULTRA CIA deep state

542
00:23:31,020 --> 00:23:29,390
kind of thing so the relativism issue do

543
00:23:33,550 --> 00:23:31,030
you want to talk to that a little bit

544
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:33,560
yeah well what what I'm really thinking

545
00:23:43,390 --> 00:23:39,050
is that ontological flooding is is more

546
00:23:46,180 --> 00:23:43,400
than just relativism relativism really

547
00:23:48,850 --> 00:23:46,190
is saying that it's placing everything

548
00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:48,860
on the same level but at the same time

549
00:23:52,420 --> 00:23:50,240
it's not it's still doing this

550
00:23:55,510 --> 00:23:52,430
ontological bracketing thing that we've

551
00:23:57,220 --> 00:23:55,520
been talking about so when when with

552
00:23:59,920 --> 00:23:57,230
relativism you're saying those guys

553
00:24:02,290 --> 00:23:59,930
believe that those guys believe that but

554
00:24:04,750 --> 00:24:02,300
really we know that underlying it all

555
00:24:06,430 --> 00:24:04,760
the Western ontology or the Western

556
00:24:08,860 --> 00:24:06,440
materialist view of the world is

557
00:24:11,940 --> 00:24:08,870
actually the correct one so my

558
00:24:14,590 --> 00:24:11,950
ontological flooding is not about belief

559
00:24:20,750 --> 00:24:14,600
it's about

560
00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:20,760
thing that actually really is there the

561
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:23,310
thing that actually is real it's not

562
00:24:27,290 --> 00:24:25,410
about beliefs about what that thing is

563
00:24:29,390 --> 00:24:27,300
it's about the thing itself and that's

564
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:29,400
what we're trying to get at so yes there

565
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:31,110
is misinformation and there's all sorts

566
00:24:36,530 --> 00:24:33,600
of things that are you know guiding us

567
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:36,540
away from apprehending so the thing that

568
00:24:42,650 --> 00:24:39,440
is really real but at the end of the day

569
00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:42,660
we can experience and participate with

570
00:24:48,710 --> 00:24:44,880
that thing does that make sense yes it

571
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:48,720
does but give us an example particularly

572
00:24:52,850 --> 00:24:50,970
maybe a personal example in your work

573
00:24:55,340 --> 00:24:52,860
because you know again let me remind

574
00:24:58,730 --> 00:24:55,350
people especially from that first book

575
00:25:00,710 --> 00:24:58,740
that she wrote and that you're there in

576
00:25:02,990 --> 00:25:00,720
the trenches I mean you're doing some of

577
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:03,000
this [\h__\h] you're living it you know so

578
00:25:09,070 --> 00:25:07,290
maybe some examples will help ground

579
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:09,080
people and to what you're talking about

580
00:25:13,670 --> 00:25:12,210
yeah well this is actually this gave me

581
00:25:15,130 --> 00:25:13,680
an opportunity to talk about something

582
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:15,140
that I haven't really talked about

583
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:18,930
before I didn't really bring it up in my

584
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:22,490
thesis either but again it's to do with

585
00:25:28,550 --> 00:25:25,710
to do with the extent to which we allow

586
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:28,560
ourselves to participate in these

587
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:33,510
realities and when I was first getting

588
00:25:39,230 --> 00:25:35,610
interested in spirit mediumship in this

589
00:25:42,950 --> 00:25:39,240
bird Lodge I was really thoroughly in

590
00:25:46,220 --> 00:25:42,960
there I was going to say answers you

591
00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:46,230
know more than once a week maybe to two

592
00:25:50,510 --> 00:25:48,990
or three times a week like I said I

593
00:25:52,250 --> 00:25:50,520
mentioned this before but it's kind of I

594
00:25:53,860 --> 00:25:52,260
always thought an interesting point it's

595
00:25:57,770 --> 00:25:53,870
basically right down the street from you

596
00:26:00,230 --> 00:25:57,780
going to the hills of Brazil that have

597
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:00,240
never been seen though a white man

598
00:26:05,390 --> 00:26:02,850
before this is right down the road yeah

599
00:26:07,460 --> 00:26:05,400
yesterday anthropology is about study of

600
00:26:09,290 --> 00:26:07,470
human beings so you can do anthropology

601
00:26:10,790 --> 00:26:09,300
wherever there's human beings

602
00:26:12,830 --> 00:26:10,800
I was also suggest you could do

603
00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:12,840
anthropology just on your own using your

604
00:26:20,450 --> 00:26:18,600
own body as subject matter but anyway as

605
00:26:22,850 --> 00:26:20,460
I was participating in this on a really

606
00:26:25,460 --> 00:26:22,860
regular basis it started to seep through

607
00:26:27,529 --> 00:26:25,470
into my everyday life

608
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:27,539
so the point when I was the most engaged

609
00:26:33,740 --> 00:26:31,490
with talking with spirits regularly

610
00:26:35,899 --> 00:26:33,750
interacting with mediums and thinking

611
00:26:39,140 --> 00:26:35,909
about it I started to have all sorts of

612
00:26:42,130 --> 00:26:39,150
other kinds of experiences filter

613
00:26:45,470 --> 00:26:42,140
through so I would have hypnagogic

614
00:26:47,060 --> 00:26:45,480
experiences where I see things appearing

615
00:26:49,549 --> 00:26:47,070
in front of my eyes when I would wake up

616
00:26:54,130 --> 00:26:49,559
and I started to see little flashes of

617
00:26:56,210 --> 00:26:54,140
light which I took as indications that

618
00:26:59,240 --> 00:26:56,220
these little flashes of light were kind

619
00:27:00,590 --> 00:26:59,250
of guiding me on my way so the point I'm

620
00:27:03,230 --> 00:27:00,600
trying to make is at the point of my

621
00:27:07,100 --> 00:27:03,240
deepest engagement with the paranormal

622
00:27:09,409 --> 00:27:07,110
and the paranormal seem to start kind of

623
00:27:11,750 --> 00:27:09,419
like looking back at me and I think

624
00:27:14,090 --> 00:27:11,760
that's where all of my kind of approach

625
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:14,100
takes us and where we were moving away

626
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:16,010
from thinking about beliefs towards

627
00:27:22,100 --> 00:27:18,450
thinking about participation and

628
00:27:25,070 --> 00:27:22,110
ontology zand the things that arise in

629
00:27:27,919 --> 00:27:25,080
your experience of existence at that

630
00:27:29,810 --> 00:27:27,929
point and then the thing is then

631
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:29,820
translating that into a kind of an

632
00:27:33,770 --> 00:27:32,159
academic context that's where things

633
00:27:36,860 --> 00:27:33,780
start to become a little bit you know

634
00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:36,870
more difficult I think because I go

635
00:27:42,770 --> 00:27:40,260
there why why go there and and I say

636
00:27:44,270 --> 00:27:42,780
that is kind of to provoke you because I

637
00:27:47,180 --> 00:27:44,280
think there's some good reasons why we

638
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:47,190
do want to go there in terms of trying

639
00:27:54,529 --> 00:27:50,490
to pull it back into this academic model

640
00:27:57,500 --> 00:27:54,539
this science at its best model but

641
00:27:59,480 --> 00:27:57,510
what's your personal answer to - why go

642
00:28:01,460 --> 00:27:59,490
there you had the experience man go with

643
00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:01,470
it go find the next experience why are

644
00:28:08,299 --> 00:28:03,840
you trying to pull it back yeah because

645
00:28:12,590 --> 00:28:08,309
I think that academia serves a purpose

646
00:28:15,260 --> 00:28:12,600
and that purpose is communicating ideas

647
00:28:17,330 --> 00:28:15,270
I think it I think it's really important

648
00:28:21,260 --> 00:28:17,340
that we have as many different kinds of

649
00:28:23,419 --> 00:28:21,270
ideas floating around in our kind of

650
00:28:25,159 --> 00:28:23,429
like in our culture as we possibly can

651
00:28:28,730 --> 00:28:25,169
and academia is one way of presenting

652
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:28,740
ideas to not just to other academics but

653
00:28:33,740 --> 00:28:30,690
also to the to the general population

654
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:33,750
if you can find a way of talking to

655
00:28:38,510 --> 00:28:35,970
people talking to academics and the

656
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:38,520
public about these kinds of experience

657
00:28:42,380 --> 00:28:40,050
since then we are opening up that

658
00:28:44,780 --> 00:28:42,390
dialogue and enabling them to share

659
00:28:47,780 --> 00:28:44,790
their experiences as well and then we're

660
00:28:51,950 --> 00:28:47,790
building up I kind of like her I guess a

661
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:51,960
new culture in a way where we're open to

662
00:28:57,650 --> 00:28:55,290
talk about the true art illogical

663
00:29:01,010 --> 00:28:57,660
flooding creating your own flood

664
00:29:02,690 --> 00:29:01,020
creating additional waves exactly I love

665
00:29:05,390 --> 00:29:02,700
you think about and I just have to go

666
00:29:08,510 --> 00:29:05,400
back and touch on it but the dam

667
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:08,520
breaking of the dam of the 40 and dam

668
00:29:13,340 --> 00:29:10,650
that's such a cool point can you just

669
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:13,350
talk about that a bit well that's kind

670
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:15,120
that's what I'm trying to do within

671
00:29:20,060 --> 00:29:18,090
academia is break that down that's

672
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:20,070
holding back all of those damned facts

673
00:29:25,130 --> 00:29:23,250
and allow those to flow in jeff grapples

674
00:29:27,860 --> 00:29:25,140
terms took like to put them back on the

675
00:29:31,070 --> 00:29:27,870
table so that's why I think it's

676
00:29:33,290 --> 00:29:31,080
important that we are or at least we try

677
00:29:36,980 --> 00:29:33,300
to translate some of the richness of our

678
00:29:39,980 --> 00:29:36,990
lived experience into academic language

679
00:29:42,290 --> 00:29:39,990
because we're communicating experience

680
00:29:45,130 --> 00:29:42,300
in a particular way admittedly minutes

681
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:45,140
and it's a limited way in a lot of

682
00:29:50,510 --> 00:29:48,930
senses as well but it's it's an attempt

683
00:29:54,050 --> 00:29:50,520
to communicate as clearly as possible

684
00:29:57,220 --> 00:29:54,060
and as kind of as as honestly as

685
00:30:00,080 --> 00:29:57,230
possible that experience of the world

686
00:30:02,540 --> 00:30:00,090
which is one thing okay so I want to go

687
00:30:04,610 --> 00:30:02,550
back and pick up on this other part of

688
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,620
the process for me the skeptical process

689
00:30:09,470 --> 00:30:06,960
I like to take people through and that's

690
00:30:10,940 --> 00:30:09,480
this look for the conspiracy part and we

691
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:10,950
talked about that a little bit

692
00:30:17,330 --> 00:30:14,330
the basic idea being that we can't

693
00:30:21,260 --> 00:30:17,340
assume that all the information we're

694
00:30:24,380 --> 00:30:21,270
getting back regardless the source is

695
00:30:27,410 --> 00:30:24,390
real valid information whatever that

696
00:30:30,020 --> 00:30:27,420
means so we have to look for the

697
00:30:31,550 --> 00:30:30,030
conspiracy whether it's all those things

698
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:31,560
that we said whether it's in this world

699
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:33,810
or the other world and I'll tell you the

700
00:30:40,010 --> 00:30:37,440
the piece that I wanted to queue up that

701
00:30:42,110 --> 00:30:40,020
relates to that I think in maybe a

702
00:30:43,730 --> 00:30:42,120
strange way for some people but it does

703
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:43,740
for me and I definitely think you'll see

704
00:30:48,410 --> 00:30:46,050
the connection and that's my recent

705
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:48,420
interview with dr. Dean Radin who of

706
00:30:55,790 --> 00:30:52,320
course has abandoned parapsychology

707
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:55,800
for magic let me play this clip for you

708
00:30:59,720 --> 00:30:57,810
from my interview with him and then we

709
00:31:01,220 --> 00:30:59,730
can chat about it I've talked to Joe

710
00:31:03,020 --> 00:31:01,230
mcmoneagle about how he does remote

711
00:31:04,820 --> 00:31:03,030
viewing as an example and he says well

712
00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:04,830
he knows that next Tuesday

713
00:31:09,770 --> 00:31:07,710
somebody's gonna hand them a photograph

714
00:31:11,690 --> 00:31:09,780
and he needs to describe it well the

715
00:31:14,570 --> 00:31:11,700
moment he knows that that's a task in

716
00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:14,580
the future he has the answer already so

717
00:31:18,530 --> 00:31:16,710
how did he he has it in full detail I

718
00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:18,540
mean he described a submarine nine

719
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:20,520
months in advance and great gory detail

720
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:23,610
so it the idea that that somebody can

721
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:26,610
describe a sequence of events that in

722
00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:29,130
the future that is vertically correct is

723
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:31,710
well-established as a sigh phenomenon

724
00:31:36,650 --> 00:31:34,290
that people can do and there's no better

725
00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:36,660
way of getting into a sigh conducive

726
00:31:43,820 --> 00:31:38,880
state and having your body go away for a

727
00:31:45,530 --> 00:31:43,830
while so so we I would say then that yes

728
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:45,540
I completely understand the the

729
00:31:49,730 --> 00:31:47,370
counter-arguments but I have not

730
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:49,740
persuaded I'm not persuaded until we get

731
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:52,490
to a point where we have a way of of

732
00:31:56,660 --> 00:31:54,570
communicating in some fashion to the

733
00:31:58,460 --> 00:31:56,670
person when they are in fact dead and

734
00:31:59,630 --> 00:31:58,470
the only way I can think of doing that

735
00:32:01,460 --> 00:31:59,640
at this point it may be through

736
00:32:02,690 --> 00:32:01,470
mediumship but even a mediumship we

737
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:02,700
don't know where the information comes

738
00:32:08,870 --> 00:32:04,770
from yeah but if we're gonna play this

739
00:32:11,380 --> 00:32:08,880
consensus reality game which at some

740
00:32:13,910 --> 00:32:11,390
point if consciousness is fundamental if

741
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:13,920
everything is as you're alluding to

742
00:32:20,330 --> 00:32:16,130
before if everything is a thought-form

743
00:32:22,730 --> 00:32:20,340
if we are creating our reality literally

744
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:22,740
and creating some of the entities that

745
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:24,690
we interact with if we're creating those

746
00:32:28,190 --> 00:32:27,330
crows well then really all bets are off

747
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:28,200
anyway

748
00:32:33,380 --> 00:32:30,210
the idea of bringing any of this into

749
00:32:35,630 --> 00:32:33,390
the lab what is a lab measuring it what

750
00:32:38,750 --> 00:32:35,640
is measuring all that stuff goes out the

751
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:38,760
window no no no see I if there's a very

752
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:41,010
important not to do a regression to the

753
00:32:44,510 --> 00:32:42,930
past we don't simply want to accept

754
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:44,520
something because that may be the

755
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:46,170
explanation that makes us feel good

756
00:32:50,390 --> 00:32:48,570
I'd love to think that the consciousness

757
00:32:53,090 --> 00:32:50,400
persists in some way as I think most

758
00:32:55,070 --> 00:32:53,100
people would but also where science you

759
00:32:57,340 --> 00:32:55,080
should know just make sure we're talking

760
00:33:02,090 --> 00:32:57,350
about the same thing I'm saying every

761
00:33:05,090 --> 00:33:02,100
experiment in your lab can be explained

762
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:05,100
by spirit intervention that you're not

763
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:06,130
aware of that you

764
00:33:11,970 --> 00:33:08,530
never be aware of because if spirits

765
00:33:14,370 --> 00:33:11,980
have this power to present themselves or

766
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:14,380
not present themselves or for to believe

767
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:18,250
the accounts deceive or not deceive that

768
00:33:21,390 --> 00:33:20,050
you will have no way of knowing you're

769
00:33:22,980 --> 00:33:21,400
looking through the wrong end of the

770
00:33:25,770 --> 00:33:22,990
telescope there's an order of

771
00:33:28,050 --> 00:33:25,780
intelligence that I'm just hypothesizing

772
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:28,060
here which is much greater so the idea

773
00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:29,530
that you're somehow going to be able to

774
00:33:35,850 --> 00:33:32,320
measure that is if we're gonna go down

775
00:33:37,710 --> 00:33:35,860
that path we can always pull that pull

776
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:37,720
that card out in the same way that

777
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:39,610
you're pulling out that card with your

778
00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:41,290
death experience science I mean at some

779
00:33:46,230 --> 00:33:43,510
point we have to say okay we're gonna

780
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:46,240
play this game of consensus reality of

781
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:48,250
science game that we can collect and we

782
00:33:51,930 --> 00:33:50,170
can measure but at another level we

783
00:33:54,540 --> 00:33:51,940
can't collect we can't measure that's

784
00:33:57,810 --> 00:33:54,550
the idea that consciousness is right and

785
00:34:01,830 --> 00:33:57,820
everything is the platform so the the

786
00:34:04,140 --> 00:34:01,840
question then is can we approach magical

787
00:34:07,050 --> 00:34:04,150
concepts let's say can we approach those

788
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:07,060
ideas in a way which is not dependent on

789
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:09,790
faith I'll end it there a third play

790
00:34:16,290 --> 00:34:13,210
such a long clip but I do think we're

791
00:34:21,030 --> 00:34:16,300
now getting to one of the the

792
00:34:24,649 --> 00:34:21,040
fundamental issues associated with your

793
00:34:27,450 --> 00:34:24,659
work and this work in general is that

794
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:27,460
yes we do want to pull it back to

795
00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:31,810
academia but once you go native to use

796
00:34:37,230 --> 00:34:35,169
your term or misuse your term maybe can

797
00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:37,240
we ever really can we ever really go

798
00:34:42,119 --> 00:34:39,790
back if we accept this extended roam can

799
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:42,129
we then put on a different hat and say

800
00:34:49,230 --> 00:34:46,210
well wait a minute let me measure it so

801
00:34:51,629 --> 00:34:49,240
that's a good question and it is there

802
00:34:53,930 --> 00:34:51,639
it is the crux of the issue that we're

803
00:34:58,650 --> 00:34:53,940
getting out here once we've established

804
00:35:01,830 --> 00:34:58,660
you know that this complex reality is

805
00:35:05,850 --> 00:35:01,840
out there I think what it means is that

806
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:05,860
that we have to develop a new kind of a

807
00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:08,770
science that there's the you know that

808
00:35:12,990 --> 00:35:10,720
our old methods of science are not

809
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:13,000
necessarily going to work anymore with

810
00:35:17,310 --> 00:35:15,370
this this new expanded view of reality

811
00:35:19,310 --> 00:35:17,320
and we're going to have to develop some

812
00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:19,320
kind of a new science to deal with it

813
00:35:23,330 --> 00:35:22,110
and there's a good chance and this is

814
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:23,340
one of the ideas that was coming across

815
00:35:29,890 --> 00:35:27,210
in the discussion with Gordon that our

816
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:29,900
kind of older ways of thinking maybe

817
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:32,850
kind of a animistic ways of thinking

818
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:35,040
we're thinking about an animist ontology

819
00:35:39,890 --> 00:35:37,770
an animist anthropology have some kind

820
00:35:44,690 --> 00:35:39,900
of an animistic way of thinking might be

821
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:44,700
kind of closer to the not so that well

822
00:35:50,650 --> 00:35:47,280
yet to the truth close nor more accurate

823
00:35:54,740 --> 00:35:50,660
model of reality does that make sense

824
00:35:57,830 --> 00:35:54,750
it does but it still doesn't I think get

825
00:36:00,080 --> 00:35:57,840
to the fundamental problem and I guess

826
00:36:01,730 --> 00:36:00,090
because it's a problem of it's a

827
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:01,740
psychological problem it's a human

828
00:36:07,460 --> 00:36:04,320
nature problem is that that we like to

829
00:36:09,740 --> 00:36:07,470
measure we like the illusion of control

830
00:36:11,570 --> 00:36:09,750
the illusion that oh yeah I got it now I

831
00:36:13,670 --> 00:36:11,580
measured it down oh wait I measured it

832
00:36:16,850 --> 00:36:13,680
even further this is even more

833
00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:16,860
statistically accurate yeah let's take a

834
00:36:21,770 --> 00:36:19,920
minute before we jump into animism which

835
00:36:24,590 --> 00:36:21,780
is the next topic I want to talk about

836
00:36:27,020 --> 00:36:24,600
because I got some ideas on that too is

837
00:36:29,090 --> 00:36:27,030
this idea of the back door materialism

838
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:29,100
which I have the utmost respect for Dean

839
00:36:35,450 --> 00:36:31,490
Radin I think he was a treasure an

840
00:36:38,150 --> 00:36:35,460
absolute treasure and I think he had a

841
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:38,160
great response to what I was laying on

842
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:40,560
the table and I like his response but I

843
00:36:45,140 --> 00:36:42,570
do think there's some back door

844
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:45,150
materialism going on here when we get to

845
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:46,410
the point where we go ok this

846
00:36:51,890 --> 00:36:48,570
materialistic model that everything is

847
00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:51,900
this big clockwork operation that we can

848
00:36:57,710 --> 00:36:55,110
measure ok we give up on that and then

849
00:36:59,450 --> 00:36:57,720
we go down that path and then a little

850
00:37:01,580 --> 00:36:59,460
bit later we found ourself going but

851
00:37:04,820 --> 00:37:01,590
yeah can't I now measure this other

852
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:04,830
weird stuff I'm kidding so backdoor

853
00:37:09,050 --> 00:37:06,510
materialism I throw that on the table

854
00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:09,060
tell me what you think yeah yeah well

855
00:37:13,340 --> 00:37:11,310
again I think it comes down to this idea

856
00:37:16,010 --> 00:37:13,350
that the science that we're using at the

857
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:16,020
moment is you know we're going to come

858
00:37:20,450 --> 00:37:17,520
to a point where we realize that it's

859
00:37:24,460 --> 00:37:20,460
outdated but that's an easy answer I

860
00:37:26,870 --> 00:37:24,470
mean it is it would be an alternative to

861
00:37:29,380 --> 00:37:26,880
that science I remember a while back

862
00:37:30,850 --> 00:37:29,390
speaking with Raymond Moody and

863
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:30,860
love Raymond Moody the guy who

864
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:32,810
originally coined the term near-death

865
00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:34,850
experience wrote the very first and

866
00:37:38,350 --> 00:37:36,800
seminal book on it and I've had a couple

867
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:38,360
of interesting conversations with him

868
00:37:42,430 --> 00:37:40,130
and he's such a character because he

869
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:42,440
talks in these riddles and rhymes and he

870
00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:45,290
does so intentionally and his point was

871
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:47,510
nearly the same but he made an important

872
00:37:53,500 --> 00:37:50,210
distinction that I thought was worth

873
00:37:59,230 --> 00:37:53,510
pursuing and he said that our system of

874
00:38:01,930 --> 00:37:59,240
logic and our system of language is not

875
00:38:03,940 --> 00:38:01,940
adequate to address those and I was

876
00:38:07,150 --> 00:38:03,950
particularly drawn to his idea that our

877
00:38:08,980 --> 00:38:07,160
system of logic doesn't work because I

878
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:08,990
think implicitly we're all married to

879
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:11,210
this idea that logic no logic is the one

880
00:38:15,310 --> 00:38:13,010
thing I can hold on to and for someone

881
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:15,320
to come along and say no maybe there's a

882
00:38:19,420 --> 00:38:17,810
different logic out there that then

883
00:38:20,770 --> 00:38:19,430
would have its own science associated

884
00:38:23,620 --> 00:38:20,780
with that hey do you have any thoughts

885
00:38:27,460 --> 00:38:23,630
on that well i agree with that i think

886
00:38:29,740 --> 00:38:27,470
our logic is you know it is it was made

887
00:38:32,890 --> 00:38:29,750
for a particular purpose and it works in

888
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:32,900
certain domains but it's not the be-all

889
00:38:38,050 --> 00:38:35,570
and end-all that there are other ways

890
00:38:39,820 --> 00:38:38,060
that we can experience the world other

891
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:39,830
ways that we can interpret the world and

892
00:38:44,530 --> 00:38:41,570
live in it and again coming back to this

893
00:38:46,540 --> 00:38:44,540
idea of animism and relational ontology

894
00:38:50,350 --> 00:38:46,550
x' and all these kinds of things that

895
00:38:52,210 --> 00:38:50,360
perhaps they offer us err maybe they're

896
00:38:54,550 --> 00:38:52,220
not that maybe they're not the final

897
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:54,560
product but maybe they offer us a new

898
00:38:58,360 --> 00:38:56,480
route or a different route out of the

899
00:39:00,040 --> 00:38:58,370
kind of quagmire that we're in at the

900
00:39:03,550 --> 00:39:00,050
moment struggling to fit all this stuff

901
00:39:05,230 --> 00:39:03,560
into our outdated science so maybe we're

902
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:05,240
looking for some kind of an animistic

903
00:39:11,110 --> 00:39:07,610
science or some kind of the relational

904
00:39:13,630 --> 00:39:11,120
science or something yeah this is the

905
00:39:16,330 --> 00:39:13,640
crux of the issue and it is difficult to

906
00:39:19,060 --> 00:39:16,340
talk about excellent love it love it

907
00:39:21,850 --> 00:39:19,070
jack so let's move on to the third part

908
00:39:23,770 --> 00:39:21,860
of this skeptical process that I like to

909
00:39:25,690 --> 00:39:23,780
play around with and that's find the

910
00:39:28,990 --> 00:39:25,700
deep spirituality and it's my way of

911
00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:29,000
saying that you know we love all this

912
00:39:35,710 --> 00:39:31,760
science talk in our ability to try and

913
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:35,720
gain control of these deep deepest most

914
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:37,610
important questions by saying we'll just

915
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:40,370
follow the data and we will bravely take

916
00:39:44,630 --> 00:39:42,450
it wherever it goes and we'll battle

917
00:39:47,510 --> 00:39:44,640
against the conspiracies but I think at

918
00:39:52,550 --> 00:39:47,520
the end of the day were looking for our

919
00:39:56,150 --> 00:39:52,560
the deeper answers - Who am I why am I

920
00:39:58,520 --> 00:39:56,160
here the Y quot that questions the three

921
00:40:00,470 --> 00:39:58,530
o'clock in the morning purpose of life

922
00:40:02,540 --> 00:40:00,480
kind of questions and that's the deep

923
00:40:05,420 --> 00:40:02,550
spirituality to me and that's what I

924
00:40:08,450 --> 00:40:05,430
think we're all really grappling with

925
00:40:12,980 --> 00:40:08,460
and I so appreciate how you're coming at

926
00:40:14,750 --> 00:40:12,990
it in this multifaceted flooded kind of

927
00:40:17,930 --> 00:40:14,760
way but I just want to make sure that

928
00:40:20,180 --> 00:40:17,940
that is what we're talking about and I

929
00:40:21,650 --> 00:40:20,190
think a great that leads into this idea

930
00:40:24,170 --> 00:40:21,660
of animism

931
00:40:29,150 --> 00:40:24,180
well yeah it's tell folks a little bit

932
00:40:33,109 --> 00:40:29,160
about what you mean by animism and why

933
00:40:36,020 --> 00:40:33,119
that has a deeper significance to you in

934
00:40:37,750 --> 00:40:36,030
terms of potentially drawing you in

935
00:40:41,599 --> 00:40:37,760
spiritually or propelling you forward

936
00:40:43,990 --> 00:40:41,609
spiritually and well again animism is a

937
00:40:47,930 --> 00:40:44,000
term that comes specifically from

938
00:40:51,170 --> 00:40:47,940
academic anthropology so we can go back

939
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:51,180
to EB Tyler who is widely regarded as

940
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:52,530
the like the founding father of

941
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:54,930
anthropology and he coined this term

942
00:40:59,809 --> 00:40:57,810
animism to refer to the belief in

943
00:41:02,510 --> 00:40:59,819
spiritual beings

944
00:41:05,540 --> 00:41:02,520
Tyler's dealing with belief to begin

945
00:41:07,010 --> 00:41:05,550
with and he's saying that if we look at

946
00:41:09,410 --> 00:41:07,020
all of the religions around the world

947
00:41:11,890 --> 00:41:09,420
and break them down to their most front

948
00:41:14,210 --> 00:41:11,900
kind of fundamental foundational and

949
00:41:16,819 --> 00:41:14,220
elements what we find is a belief in

950
00:41:20,359 --> 00:41:16,829
these non-physical beings that inhabit

951
00:41:23,809 --> 00:41:20,369
plants and rocks and things so help

952
00:41:29,710 --> 00:41:23,819
people understand animism compared to

953
00:41:33,380 --> 00:41:29,720
let's say Pan psychism or compared to

954
00:41:35,089 --> 00:41:33,390
materialism or compared to idealism

955
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:35,099
without getting too much into the

956
00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:37,170
philosophical kind of part of that but

957
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:39,510
just at a really kind of quick level

958
00:41:43,339 --> 00:41:41,730
with the people who are saying animism

959
00:41:45,050 --> 00:41:43,349
when they throw it in that same sentence

960
00:41:46,910 --> 00:41:45,060
with idealism and apparently you know

961
00:41:49,849 --> 00:41:46,920
what are they talking about okay yeah

962
00:41:51,470 --> 00:41:49,859
well again going back to what I was

963
00:41:53,329 --> 00:41:51,480
saying about spirits and stuff that was

964
00:41:55,370 --> 00:41:53,339
kind of an old I kind of like an

965
00:41:55,940 --> 00:41:55,380
outdated way of thinking about things it

966
00:41:58,580 --> 00:41:55,950
was in place

967
00:42:01,010 --> 00:41:58,590
loaded with assumptions of other people

968
00:42:02,450 --> 00:42:01,020
who were animists so suggesting that the

969
00:42:03,830 --> 00:42:02,460
people who are Animists were kind of

970
00:42:06,530 --> 00:42:03,840
primitive and that their way of thinking

971
00:42:08,710 --> 00:42:06,540
was was useless so right from the very

972
00:42:11,390 --> 00:42:08,720
beginning anthropology is kind of like

973
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:11,400
it's been interested in animism but

974
00:42:16,730 --> 00:42:13,890
again it's kind of bracketed out it's

975
00:42:17,990 --> 00:42:16,740
it's kind of ontological truth value if

976
00:42:22,190 --> 00:42:18,000
you can if you can talk about such a

977
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:22,200
thing just a bunch of beliefs relativity

978
00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:26,250
energetics what happened and see if see

979
00:42:29,780 --> 00:42:28,110
if you see if this is true or not

980
00:42:31,670 --> 00:42:29,790
because sometimes me coming as a total

981
00:42:33,620 --> 00:42:31,680
novice might might help but you got to

982
00:42:35,300 --> 00:42:33,630
correct me because it's totally wrong so

983
00:42:37,310 --> 00:42:35,310
the anthropologist walks into the

984
00:42:38,690 --> 00:42:37,320
forests of New Guinea and he goes and

985
00:42:41,570 --> 00:42:38,700
talks to the shaman and the shaman says

986
00:42:45,620 --> 00:42:41,580
that tree just talk to me and that rock

987
00:42:47,660 --> 00:42:45,630
is is also is wise in this way and the

988
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:47,670
water is this and the guy's taking his

989
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:49,200
notes he goes okay this guy's really

990
00:42:53,810 --> 00:42:51,810
kind of has this really weird belief

991
00:42:56,450 --> 00:42:53,820
system because he thinks all these

992
00:43:00,860 --> 00:42:56,460
things are alive and have this spiritual

993
00:43:02,990 --> 00:43:00,870
quality to them right so that's the is

994
00:43:05,450 --> 00:43:03,000
is that what originally they thought

995
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:05,460
animism was from it yeah

996
00:43:10,010 --> 00:43:07,170
then they thought a was a belief system

997
00:43:13,010 --> 00:43:10,020
because they implicitly understood that

998
00:43:15,590 --> 00:43:13,020
again the Western materialist scientific

999
00:43:18,830 --> 00:43:15,600
ontology was the only one that's

1000
00:43:22,820 --> 00:43:18,840
actually true the only one that's

1001
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:22,830
actually real so yeah eventually though

1002
00:43:28,130 --> 00:43:25,050
through more and more ethnographic

1003
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:28,140
engagement with people so more and more

1004
00:43:32,270 --> 00:43:30,090
anthropologists going out over the years

1005
00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:32,280
and living with people and interacting

1006
00:43:37,340 --> 00:43:34,710
with them learning their life ways we

1007
00:43:40,700 --> 00:43:37,350
begin to realize that animism isn't just

1008
00:43:43,610 --> 00:43:40,710
a belief system the animism is actually

1009
00:43:46,580 --> 00:43:43,620
a mode of engaging with the world so

1010
00:43:48,350 --> 00:43:46,590
it's a way of living in the world it's

1011
00:43:51,590 --> 00:43:48,360
not just about beliefs it's about

1012
00:43:54,860 --> 00:43:51,600
practice and experience and

1013
00:43:58,010 --> 00:43:54,870
participation in the world and this is

1014
00:44:01,910 --> 00:43:58,020
now animism is often referred to as a

1015
00:44:05,060 --> 00:44:01,920
kind of as a relational ontology so the

1016
00:44:07,190 --> 00:44:05,070
foundational components of animism the

1017
00:44:09,580 --> 00:44:07,200
foundational elements are there are to

1018
00:44:12,830 --> 00:44:09,590
do with relationships between

1019
00:44:15,650 --> 00:44:12,840
persons and we say that not all persons

1020
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:15,660
are human so in anthropology we talk

1021
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:17,570
about other than human persons as well

1022
00:44:23,990 --> 00:44:21,690
so these could be rocks plants animals

1023
00:44:26,180 --> 00:44:24,000
and all of the other kinds of spirits

1024
00:44:29,420 --> 00:44:26,190
and gods and deities as well but the

1025
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:29,430
important thing is the situation the

1026
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:32,250
situating of societies within a network

1027
00:44:38,170 --> 00:44:35,730
of relationships so this is where this

1028
00:44:40,820 --> 00:44:38,180
is where the ontology differs from

1029
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:40,830
materialist ontology is and you know all

1030
00:44:44,530 --> 00:44:42,330
the other kinds of Western mainstream

1031
00:44:47,420 --> 00:44:44,540
anthologies is that we're realizing

1032
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:47,430
through animism that we're embedded in

1033
00:44:52,490 --> 00:44:50,250
this bigger network of interactions with

1034
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:52,500
different kinds of minds different kinds

1035
00:44:56,450 --> 00:44:54,930
of intelligences and that they're the

1036
00:44:58,190 --> 00:44:56,460
front these relationships are the

1037
00:45:02,990 --> 00:44:58,200
fundamental kind of building blocks of

1038
00:45:06,770 --> 00:45:03,000
reality and then add to that flood that

1039
00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:06,780
with our understanding our gradual

1040
00:45:11,090 --> 00:45:08,400
understanding of the paranormal and

1041
00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:11,100
someone goes out in encounters spirits

1042
00:45:16,190 --> 00:45:13,040
or our understanding through

1043
00:45:19,340 --> 00:45:16,200
parapsychology of medium research or of

1044
00:45:22,370 --> 00:45:19,350
other encounters with the paranormal

1045
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:22,380
that now eat away at the underlying

1046
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:24,330
assumption that was originally made that

1047
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:27,930
not only is it a belief system but it's

1048
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:29,910
an incorrect belief system so you're

1049
00:45:33,890 --> 00:45:31,650
you're crushing the idea that it's a

1050
00:45:36,290 --> 00:45:33,900
belief system it's not a belief system

1051
00:45:39,830 --> 00:45:36,300
it's a total engagement with reality but

1052
00:45:42,070 --> 00:45:39,840
then add to that that there is a reality

1053
00:45:44,660 --> 00:45:42,080
to that reality and that my

1054
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:44,670
presuppositions about how the world

1055
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:46,730
works and the craziness of this

1056
00:45:52,670 --> 00:45:49,410
spiritual realm and I'll begun to

1057
00:45:54,380 --> 00:45:52,680
crumble with the the parapsychologist in

1058
00:45:56,570 --> 00:45:54,390
the paranormal people right so I mean

1059
00:45:58,910 --> 00:45:56,580
all these things are happening kind of

1060
00:46:01,160 --> 00:45:58,920
at once in real time and having these

1061
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:01,170
different effects and forces on the

1062
00:46:05,690 --> 00:46:02,970
whole process right yes yeah yeah

1063
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:05,700
definitely and and then so we should add

1064
00:46:09,470 --> 00:46:07,530
to that conversation then and I want you

1065
00:46:11,540 --> 00:46:09,480
to pick this up because I think this is

1066
00:46:14,530 --> 00:46:11,550
what throws people sometimes too and

1067
00:46:18,170 --> 00:46:14,540
it's it's a lot to deconstruct is that

1068
00:46:20,810 --> 00:46:18,180
animism is now being reintroduced into

1069
00:46:22,099 --> 00:46:20,820
these conversations like with you and

1070
00:46:26,329 --> 00:46:22,109
Gordon

1071
00:46:29,870 --> 00:46:26,339
as an alternative to idealism as an

1072
00:46:33,499 --> 00:46:29,880
alternative to materialism and I think

1073
00:46:37,370 --> 00:46:33,509
we've just given people an idea of why

1074
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:37,380
that conversation goes on but maybe we

1075
00:46:43,609 --> 00:46:40,130
need to add to that a little bit in

1076
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:43,619
explain how those kind of are now put on

1077
00:46:48,259 --> 00:46:46,410
oh yeah pants psychism is basically like

1078
00:46:50,749 --> 00:46:48,269
animism and that's different than

1079
00:46:52,339 --> 00:46:50,759
idealism and materialism II do you have

1080
00:46:53,769 --> 00:46:52,349
any thoughts in terms of helping people

1081
00:46:59,950 --> 00:46:53,779
kind of understand that

1082
00:47:02,779 --> 00:46:59,960
well yeah it's it's kind of like a murky

1083
00:47:04,549 --> 00:47:02,789
territory I know that Gordon for example

1084
00:47:08,359 --> 00:47:04,559
Gordon doesn't like the idea of Pam

1085
00:47:10,279 --> 00:47:08,369
psychism and he's like you talking about

1086
00:47:12,829 --> 00:47:10,289
Dean things that Pam psychism is kind of

1087
00:47:17,089 --> 00:47:12,839
like a backdoor materialism again at the

1088
00:47:19,309 --> 00:47:17,099
end of the day it's a crutch yeah what

1089
00:47:21,559 --> 00:47:19,319
do you think that's a Gordon scratch no

1090
00:47:24,049 --> 00:47:21,569
no no I think I think it's a I think

1091
00:47:27,650 --> 00:47:24,059
it's a crutch I think it's the you know

1092
00:47:30,620 --> 00:47:27,660
it's the last bastion of materialism

1093
00:47:32,420 --> 00:47:30,630
hold on hold outs you know one foot on

1094
00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:32,430
the dark one foot in the boat kind of

1095
00:47:38,539 --> 00:47:35,910
thing mixing metaphors but yeah it's on

1096
00:47:40,630 --> 00:47:38,549
the is its on the way towards animism

1097
00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:40,640
but it's not willing to go all the way

1098
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:45,119
and when we talk about Pam psychism for

1099
00:47:49,450 --> 00:47:47,249
example we're talking about some kind of

1100
00:47:53,269 --> 00:47:49,460
like a fundamental kind of consciousness

1101
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:53,279
or a fundamental awareness that isn't

1102
00:47:57,349 --> 00:47:55,170
you know it's not consciousness as we

1103
00:47:57,950 --> 00:47:57,359
understand it it's just it's the basis

1104
00:47:59,359 --> 00:47:57,960
of awareness

1105
00:48:01,430 --> 00:47:59,369
whereas when we're coming from an

1106
00:48:04,009 --> 00:48:01,440
animistic perspective that other

1107
00:48:06,650 --> 00:48:04,019
consciousness has just as much agency

1108
00:48:08,269 --> 00:48:06,660
and intention in the world as we do they

1109
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:08,279
just express themselves in them in

1110
00:48:11,450 --> 00:48:09,930
different kinds of ways so the

1111
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:11,460
consciousness of a rock isn't

1112
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:12,930
necessarily just some kind of like a

1113
00:48:17,809 --> 00:48:15,450
flat flat lines background consciousness

1114
00:48:19,999 --> 00:48:17,819
but actually possesses its own agency

1115
00:48:23,420 --> 00:48:20,009
and intention in the same way that that

1116
00:48:24,620 --> 00:48:23,430
we do but it expresses its agency and

1117
00:48:27,229 --> 00:48:24,630
intention in the world in a very

1118
00:48:30,859 --> 00:48:27,239
different way perhaps over like vast

1119
00:48:33,859 --> 00:48:30,869
vast timescales or things like that okay

1120
00:48:35,460 --> 00:48:33,869
this is fun because this is now an

1121
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:35,470
opportunity to take the

1122
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:37,210
conversation one step further because

1123
00:48:41,970 --> 00:48:40,090
I'm listening to you and Gordon and all

1124
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:41,980
your cool thoughts on Amazon I'm

1125
00:48:46,859 --> 00:48:43,810
thinking but guys you've missed the

1126
00:48:50,700 --> 00:48:46,869
point in the same way it's on the way

1127
00:48:52,770 --> 00:48:50,710
towards what again I mean it take these

1128
00:48:55,230 --> 00:48:52,780
different wisdom traditions and I've

1129
00:48:58,500 --> 00:48:55,240
always been interested in yoga and in

1130
00:49:01,950 --> 00:48:58,510
the east and in particular the Vedanta

1131
00:49:04,620 --> 00:49:01,960
non-dual kind of thing hey man all those

1132
00:49:07,070 --> 00:49:04,630
people there saying sure it's spirits of

1133
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:07,080
hares parents they're spirits everywhere

1134
00:49:14,849 --> 00:49:11,010
on the way towards what it's about

1135
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:14,859
transcending that spiritual reality and

1136
00:49:21,390 --> 00:49:18,400
getting to what's next so it does seem

1137
00:49:24,330 --> 00:49:21,400
to me to be somewhat of an arbitrary

1138
00:49:27,180 --> 00:49:24,340
stopping point to say ah we've got it

1139
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:27,190
we've arrived it's animism you know it's

1140
00:49:32,849 --> 00:49:29,050
like this discussion you're having about

1141
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:32,859
does animism sassoon idealism and it's

1142
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:35,050
like no of course not

1143
00:49:41,930 --> 00:49:38,650
because idealism is really saying that

1144
00:49:45,870 --> 00:49:41,940
it's all it's closer to that that

1145
00:49:49,620 --> 00:49:45,880
non-dual Vedantic kind of it all goes

1146
00:49:53,010 --> 00:49:49,630
into one there the wave in the ocean are

1147
00:49:55,410 --> 00:49:53,020
just separate only because we imagined

1148
00:49:57,620 --> 00:49:55,420
them to be separate so I've teed it up

1149
00:50:00,870 --> 00:49:57,630
enough there let's start that discussion

1150
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:00,880
yeah well I agree with you because I

1151
00:50:06,210 --> 00:50:03,490
don't think I'm well I don't think that

1152
00:50:09,359 --> 00:50:06,220
animism is is the place to stop

1153
00:50:11,550 --> 00:50:09,369
necessarily but again what you're saying

1154
00:50:15,660 --> 00:50:11,560
is with one step closer to whatever the

1155
00:50:19,290 --> 00:50:15,670
ultimate thing is but I think it's a

1156
00:50:22,079 --> 00:50:19,300
particularly useful way of thinking

1157
00:50:23,790 --> 00:50:22,089
about the world given that we have for

1158
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:23,800
the past hundred and fifty years being

1159
00:50:30,810 --> 00:50:28,690
literally destroying our our planet it

1160
00:50:33,900 --> 00:50:30,820
gives us kind of like a framework to

1161
00:50:36,780 --> 00:50:33,910
rebuild our relationship with live kind

1162
00:50:40,230 --> 00:50:36,790
of like the ground of our being here do

1163
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:40,240
you see what I mean thinking in terms of

1164
00:50:44,460 --> 00:50:42,400
relationships shows that we are part of

1165
00:50:47,450 --> 00:50:44,470
this wider network of things whether it

1166
00:50:51,049 --> 00:50:47,460
turns out to be an an idealist

1167
00:50:53,630 --> 00:50:51,059
universe or multiverse ofö animism

1168
00:50:56,930 --> 00:50:53,640
teaches us that we have to look at our

1169
00:51:00,920 --> 00:50:56,940
kind of the local area as well I love

1170
00:51:03,890 --> 00:51:00,930
that I think that's extremely wise on a

1171
00:51:06,109 --> 00:51:03,900
number of levels and it kind of gets

1172
00:51:07,700 --> 00:51:06,119
into this last topic that I wanted to

1173
00:51:11,059 --> 00:51:07,710
talk about and we have been talking

1174
00:51:14,420 --> 00:51:11,069
about really and that is what works in

1175
00:51:16,190 --> 00:51:14,430
what doesn't from a practical sense you

1176
00:51:18,380 --> 00:51:16,200
know once we give up on the idea that

1177
00:51:20,210 --> 00:51:18,390
we're going to get to the answer we're

1178
00:51:22,279 --> 00:51:20,220
gonna get to the solution we're gonna

1179
00:51:24,319 --> 00:51:22,289
solve our own problems and solve the

1180
00:51:25,579 --> 00:51:24,329
problems of the world you know once we

1181
00:51:27,710 --> 00:51:25,589
get past that we can be a little bit

1182
00:51:32,089 --> 00:51:27,720
more humble and said okay what might

1183
00:51:34,309 --> 00:51:32,099
work towards making me better and

1184
00:51:37,250 --> 00:51:34,319
answering these questions and as you

1185
00:51:40,099 --> 00:51:37,260
alluded to if we can be humble about our

1186
00:51:42,710 --> 00:51:40,109
role in the world we can maybe look at

1187
00:51:44,329 --> 00:51:42,720
the same things those same bigger

1188
00:51:46,609 --> 00:51:44,339
questions from that personal okay

1189
00:51:48,980 --> 00:51:46,619
what can I do to make things a little

1190
00:51:52,339 --> 00:51:48,990
bit better in my community a little bit

1191
00:51:55,819 --> 00:51:52,349
better with my family dinner table or

1192
00:51:59,750 --> 00:51:55,829
whatever and with that we ought to

1193
00:52:02,660 --> 00:51:59,760
introduce people to your excellent

1194
00:52:05,990 --> 00:52:02,670
podcast ladies and gentlemen talking to

1195
00:52:08,539 --> 00:52:06,000
a podcaster dr. Jack hunter has entered

1196
00:52:10,430 --> 00:52:08,549
the world of podcasting permaculture I

1197
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:10,440
swear I did not get the whole

1198
00:52:15,019 --> 00:52:12,210
permaculture thing Gords been talking

1199
00:52:17,539 --> 00:52:15,029
about it for a year I've been listening

1200
00:52:21,890 --> 00:52:17,549
to him I got it for the first time when

1201
00:52:25,490 --> 00:52:21,900
I heard episode 1 of your podcast and

1202
00:52:29,180 --> 00:52:25,500
how this relates so let me play a clip

1203
00:52:33,799 --> 00:52:29,190
from this an extended clip and then

1204
00:52:35,930 --> 00:52:33,809
let's talk about it okay I could I would

1205
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:35,940
argue probably that my approach is not

1206
00:52:41,269 --> 00:52:37,770
so much to do with belief and it's more

1207
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:41,279
to do with experience okay so the kinds

1208
00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:42,690
of things that I'm interested in are

1209
00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:45,510
usually rooted in of from my perspective

1210
00:52:49,460 --> 00:52:47,250
this interview Richard an experience

1211
00:52:51,529 --> 00:52:49,470
first and then belief is something that

1212
00:52:53,329 --> 00:52:51,539
comes later so if you are if you're

1213
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:53,339
researching religion for example in your

1214
00:52:56,530 --> 00:52:53,570
own

1215
00:52:59,470 --> 00:52:56,540
researching religious beliefs then

1216
00:53:02,350 --> 00:52:59,480
you're not actually researching the real

1217
00:53:05,290 --> 00:53:02,360
thing right yes yes yes so I think

1218
00:53:07,750 --> 00:53:05,300
that's whether the connection is between

1219
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:07,760
you know observation and permaculture

1220
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:10,400
and religious experience or whatever

1221
00:53:16,690 --> 00:53:13,130
it's to do with the way we experience

1222
00:53:18,910 --> 00:53:16,700
and interact with this other mind out

1223
00:53:21,250 --> 00:53:18,920
there or this other thing you don't need

1224
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:21,260
to believe it go into the field and

1225
00:53:26,590 --> 00:53:24,650
experience and feel it yes yes it's

1226
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:26,600
about changing our the way we think

1227
00:53:29,290 --> 00:53:28,370
about the world and another thing

1228
00:53:32,860 --> 00:53:29,300
especially when you look at more

1229
00:53:34,690 --> 00:53:32,870
traditional cultures is I mean it's not

1230
00:53:37,150 --> 00:53:34,700
yeah like see it's it's it's

1231
00:53:38,740 --> 00:53:37,160
experiential and it's AIT's AIT's to

1232
00:53:41,710 --> 00:53:38,750
have they understand their place within

1233
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:41,720
the world is is how this yeah and that's

1234
00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:43,610
it it comes back to this well I've been

1235
00:53:48,490 --> 00:53:45,710
linking with this idea of from Deep

1236
00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:48,500
Ecology this idea of an eco sofy which

1237
00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:51,200
is a kind of like a philosophy of place

1238
00:53:55,630 --> 00:53:53,510
a philosophy that's emerged from a

1239
00:53:58,360 --> 00:53:55,640
particular place that's exactly what we

1240
00:54:00,460 --> 00:53:58,370
see when we look at indigenous cultures

1241
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:00,470
all around the world their way of living

1242
00:54:05,350 --> 00:54:02,530
has emerged naturally out of the

1243
00:54:07,060 --> 00:54:05,360
environment that they live in and our

1244
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:07,070
problem in the West seems to be that

1245
00:54:11,050 --> 00:54:09,050
we've developed one particular way of

1246
00:54:12,850 --> 00:54:11,060
doing things and then we're trying to

1247
00:54:15,340 --> 00:54:12,860
apply it across a whole range of

1248
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:15,350
situations where it doesn't really work

1249
00:54:20,590 --> 00:54:18,170
you need to be reconnecting with our

1250
00:54:23,110 --> 00:54:20,600
local environments in this way

1251
00:54:24,610 --> 00:54:23,120
developing our own eco-cities right so

1252
00:54:26,350 --> 00:54:24,620
it's like this the kind of science we

1253
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:26,360
developed in test tubes you know it

1254
00:54:29,980 --> 00:54:28,250
works and it's observable it were real

1255
00:54:32,350 --> 00:54:29,990
but when you apply that to natural

1256
00:54:34,570 --> 00:54:32,360
systems it just can never understand the

1257
00:54:36,820 --> 00:54:34,580
complexity and dynamics of a natural

1258
00:54:38,590 --> 00:54:36,830
system yeah and again it's part of how

1259
00:54:40,060 --> 00:54:38,600
we've quite over simplifying things

1260
00:54:42,910 --> 00:54:40,070
we've created these enormous problems

1261
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:42,920
for ourselves because we've that we've

1262
00:54:45,850 --> 00:54:44,330
gone into a growing environments is what

1263
00:54:47,740 --> 00:54:45,860
we want to grow carrots and everything

1264
00:54:48,490 --> 00:54:47,750
else is a weed it's an enemy and has to

1265
00:54:50,590 --> 00:54:48,500
be removed

1266
00:54:52,030 --> 00:54:50,600
we know that the soil wouldn't be there

1267
00:54:53,230 --> 00:54:52,040
if it wasn't for the worms and the world

1268
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:53,240
wouldn't be the fit wasn't for the

1269
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:55,010
microbes and they're digesting it Center

1270
00:54:58,150 --> 00:54:56,210
etcetera and without the worms there's

1271
00:55:00,370 --> 00:54:58,160
no birds and bird cycle phosphate and

1272
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:00,380
maintain fertility yeah so actually in a

1273
00:55:04,150 --> 00:55:02,570
simplistic thing of going just thinking

1274
00:55:05,770 --> 00:55:04,160
about one thing and I'm trying to

1275
00:55:06,690 --> 00:55:05,780
simplify nature is that's at the heart

1276
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:06,700
how would

1277
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:08,890
know how we've caused these really

1278
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:14,650
colossal problems such great stuff yes

1279
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:17,770
so awesome I got it I got it for the

1280
00:55:24,450 --> 00:55:22,810
first time and talk talk about that I'll

1281
00:55:26,850 --> 00:55:24,460
tell you a little bit about what

1282
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:26,860
permaculture is and then we can explore

1283
00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:29,770
it a little bit more so in a in a

1284
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:33,040
nutshell permaculture is a design system

1285
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:35,050
that takes its inspiration from

1286
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:39,370
observations of natural systems so say

1287
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:42,970
for example we want to design a way of

1288
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:46,570
doing agriculture what we would do is

1289
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:48,490
look at the natural world and see how

1290
00:55:53,820 --> 00:55:51,040
the most abundant systems work and then

1291
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:53,830
try to emulate that as best as we can on

1292
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:56,170
our farm so if you look at a rainforest

1293
00:56:01,410 --> 00:55:57,850
for example which is the most one of the

1294
00:56:03,420 --> 00:56:01,420
most abundant places on the earth what

1295
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:03,430
we see is millions and millions of

1296
00:56:07,350 --> 00:56:05,290
interactions between different kinds of

1297
00:56:09,210 --> 00:56:07,360
organisms so what you'd want to do is

1298
00:56:11,310 --> 00:56:09,220
try and replicate that to the best of

1299
00:56:12,870 --> 00:56:11,320
your ability within your local

1300
00:56:15,810 --> 00:56:12,880
environment no I'm not saying it

1301
00:56:18,630 --> 00:56:15,820
replicates the rainforest but replicate

1302
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:18,640
an abundant space that is best suited to

1303
00:56:24,300 --> 00:56:22,050
your particular local environment so

1304
00:56:26,610 --> 00:56:24,310
permaculture really emphasizes this

1305
00:56:29,010 --> 00:56:26,620
element of complexity and this

1306
00:56:32,030 --> 00:56:29,020
understanding of the world as being as

1307
00:56:34,380 --> 00:56:32,040
being like systems of inter connecting

1308
00:56:37,350 --> 00:56:34,390
processes and interrelated and

1309
00:56:39,630 --> 00:56:37,360
interdependent organisms so it's a

1310
00:56:42,780 --> 00:56:39,640
really you know it's there's nothing

1311
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:42,790
particularly groundbreaking about that

1312
00:56:45,630 --> 00:56:44,410
it's a fairly kind of like Steve was

1313
00:56:49,980 --> 00:56:45,640
saying in that interview that it's a

1314
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:49,990
fairly kind of standard look of like

1315
00:56:54,930 --> 00:56:52,240
earthy understanding of the world and

1316
00:56:58,970 --> 00:56:54,940
anyone who interacts with the world on a

1317
00:57:02,970 --> 00:56:58,980
regular basis will come to realize that

1318
00:57:05,090 --> 00:57:02,980
naturally what's not discount at too

1319
00:57:09,660 --> 00:57:05,100
much because it's not at all obvious

1320
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:09,670
it's it's ontological flooding right it

1321
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:12,490
in a whole different way I mean so draw

1322
00:57:16,290 --> 00:57:14,530
the parallels you've obviously totally

1323
00:57:19,140 --> 00:57:16,300
living those parallels and if tell

1324
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:19,150
totally brought them into your being in

1325
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:19,850
your work

1326
00:57:26,170 --> 00:57:22,850
make them explicit for folks maybe yeah

1327
00:57:28,110 --> 00:57:26,180
way well the the major parallels that I

1328
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:28,120
see are to do again like I said with

1329
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:32,450
complexity and understanding this of the

1330
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:34,930
way the world seems to work is through

1331
00:57:40,180 --> 00:57:37,730
interactions between different kinds of

1332
00:57:43,990 --> 00:57:40,190
organisms different kinds of I guess we

1333
00:57:46,810 --> 00:57:44,000
could say Minds so when I was finishing

1334
00:57:48,490 --> 00:57:46,820
off my thesis I hadn't really been

1335
00:57:51,220 --> 00:57:48,500
thinking about permaculture until I

1336
00:57:54,100 --> 00:57:51,230
started to work with Steve on this one

1337
00:57:55,870 --> 00:57:54,110
school one planet project and when I did

1338
00:57:58,300 --> 00:57:55,880
a permaculture design course with Steve

1339
00:58:00,880 --> 00:57:58,310
as well which is kind of like a it's

1340
00:58:03,330 --> 00:58:00,890
like usually permaculture design course

1341
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:03,340
is a two week kind of intensive

1342
00:58:07,870 --> 00:58:05,690
introduction to permaculture looking at

1343
00:58:10,090 --> 00:58:07,880
all of these different principles the

1344
00:58:11,710 --> 00:58:10,100
way than the ecosystems function and all

1345
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:11,720
of those kinds of things and as I was

1346
00:58:17,350 --> 00:58:13,250
doing that I was seeing more and more

1347
00:58:19,380 --> 00:58:17,360
connections with with my own work so in

1348
00:58:23,530 --> 00:58:19,390
conversations with Steve over the last

1349
00:58:27,670 --> 00:58:23,540
year or so two years at years two years

1350
00:58:32,070 --> 00:58:27,680
now the two these two worlds by

1351
00:58:34,900 --> 00:58:32,080
paranormal interests and my permaculture

1352
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:34,910
ecology interests have really started to

1353
00:58:41,290 --> 00:58:38,090
come together and actually I've just

1354
00:58:45,390 --> 00:58:41,300
started working on a new book a new

1355
00:58:47,890 --> 00:58:45,400
edited book about the links between

1356
00:58:50,020 --> 00:58:47,900
anomalistic so the study of the

1357
00:58:53,530 --> 00:58:50,030
paranormal in all of its varied guises

1358
00:58:55,270 --> 00:58:53,540
and ecology and some of the

1359
00:58:57,580 --> 00:58:55,280
contributions that I'm getting in to

1360
00:59:00,190 --> 00:58:57,590
different suggestions for chapters

1361
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:00,200
coming in so far really a driving home

1362
00:59:05,830 --> 00:59:01,970
the fact that this connection is there

1363
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:05,840
and it's real it's just really it's

1364
00:59:11,590 --> 00:59:09,770
really good excellent so Jack it's been

1365
00:59:13,900 --> 00:59:11,600
a wonderful conversation I really

1366
00:59:17,620 --> 00:59:13,910
appreciate the dialog tell folks more

1367
00:59:19,630 --> 00:59:17,630
about this particular book engaging the

1368
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:19,640
anomalous where they can pick that up

1369
00:59:25,540 --> 00:59:23,090
how they can keep track of you and and

1370
00:59:29,350 --> 00:59:25,550
maybe even tune in to that very cool

1371
00:59:31,030 --> 00:59:29,360
podcast as well yeah well engaging the

1372
00:59:32,790 --> 00:59:31,040
anomalous you can you can get it online

1373
00:59:35,820 --> 00:59:32,800
on Amazon

1374
00:59:38,430 --> 00:59:35,830
dot-com and Coto UK and also various

1375
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:38,440
other kind of online booksellers you can

1376
00:59:42,900 --> 00:59:41,050
probably also order it into your you

1377
00:59:45,990 --> 00:59:42,910
know physical book shops as well which

1378
00:59:47,670 --> 00:59:46,000
would be good other things I've got

1379
00:59:51,230 --> 00:59:47,680
going on I'm just about to finish off

1380
00:59:53,580 --> 00:59:51,240
editing dr. Marquez rolls new book

1381
00:59:54,900 --> 00:59:53,590
ecology cosmos and consciousness which

1382
00:59:57,630 --> 00:59:54,910
further explores some of these

1383
01:00:00,540 --> 00:59:57,640
interconnections between transpersonal

1384
01:00:02,220 --> 01:00:00,550
psychology ecology Deep Ecology and also

1385
01:00:04,830 --> 01:00:02,230
brings a little bit of superheroes in

1386
01:00:07,620 --> 01:00:04,840
there as well which is always good if

1387
01:00:09,750 --> 01:00:07,630
you want to keep up with my work you can

1388
01:00:11,850 --> 01:00:09,760
check out the parent or apology website

1389
01:00:15,420 --> 01:00:11,860
or you can visit my personal website

1390
01:00:19,500 --> 01:00:15,430
which is Jack - hunter web starts comm

1391
01:00:21,930 --> 01:00:19,510
and I upload all of my essays and

1392
01:00:23,910 --> 01:00:21,940
articles and podcast interviews and

1393
01:00:25,620 --> 01:00:23,920
things up there so that's probably the

1394
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:25,630
best way to check it out greening the

1395
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:27,250
paranormal which i think has got some

1396
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:30,250
really exciting potential in two

1397
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:32,410
different ways one way showing that

1398
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:34,170
there are these connections between

1399
01:00:39,210 --> 01:00:36,490
ecological ways of thinking and the

1400
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:39,220
paranormal but also one of the things

1401
01:00:44,100 --> 01:00:41,290
that I really want the book to do is to

1402
01:00:46,860 --> 01:00:44,110
have a kind of a practical alpha as well

1403
01:00:48,630 --> 01:00:46,870
so it's just kind of like encourage that

1404
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:48,640
the paranormal community of you what I

1405
01:00:53,310 --> 01:00:50,890
think of it and that way to engage with

1406
01:00:54,780 --> 01:00:53,320
the ecology because there's a thing

1407
01:00:56,790 --> 01:00:54,790
called the greening of religion I

1408
01:00:58,980 --> 01:00:56,800
mentioned it in my interview with Gordon

1409
01:01:01,080 --> 01:00:58,990
where you know we have all of these

1410
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:01,090
religionists of people who believe and

1411
01:01:04,110 --> 01:01:02,650
in the various different faith

1412
01:01:06,810 --> 01:01:04,120
traditions that represents a lot of

1413
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:06,820
people and if they were putting some of

1414
01:01:09,950 --> 01:01:08,410
their you know even if they only put a

1415
01:01:13,740 --> 01:01:09,960
portion of their effort into

1416
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:13,750
regenerating our biodiversity or you

1417
01:01:19,230 --> 01:01:16,690
know reducing the consumption of fossil

1418
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:19,240
fuels or whatever if they think about it

1419
01:01:22,770 --> 01:01:20,530
in those terms then it's gonna have a

1420
01:01:24,420 --> 01:01:22,780
positive impact and I think that there

1421
01:01:25,710 --> 01:01:24,430
are so many people who are interested in

1422
01:01:27,210 --> 01:01:25,720
the paranormal that we could do a

1423
01:01:29,850 --> 01:01:27,220
similar thing with the paranormal

1424
01:01:34,020 --> 01:01:29,860
and if paranormal enthusiasts starts to

1425
01:01:37,350 --> 01:01:34,030
take an interest in regenerating natural

1426
01:01:38,910 --> 01:01:37,360
systems in developing new new ways of

1427
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:38,920
agriculture and things then we'll be

1428
01:01:45,660 --> 01:01:43,570
onto a good thing Jack Jack Jack back

1429
01:01:49,470 --> 01:01:45,670
door materialism world

1430
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:49,480
what world that's a topic for another

1431
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:53,650
topic for another show but III just so

1432
01:01:58,500 --> 01:01:56,290
love what you're doing and I so

1433
01:02:00,630 --> 01:01:58,510
appreciate you joining me today on

1434
01:02:03,150 --> 01:02:00,640
skeptic Oh to talk all of them out oh

1435
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:03,160
this best of luck to you in will

1436
01:02:08,670 --> 01:02:06,250
definitely stay in touch a excellent

1437
01:02:10,470 --> 01:02:08,680
thanks so much for having me so thanks

1438
01:02:13,020 --> 01:02:10,480
for watching this video if it wasn't

1439
01:02:14,940 --> 01:02:13,030
really a video but just an audio stored

1440
01:02:17,039 --> 01:02:14,950
as a video I apologize but there's more

1441
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:17,049
videos out there as well but please

1442
01:02:20,609 --> 01:02:18,970
check out the skeptic Oh website you can

1443
01:02:22,069 --> 01:02:20,619
see it here we cover a lot of different

1444
01:02:25,079 --> 01:02:22,079
stuff you might be interested in

1445
01:02:27,900 --> 01:02:25,089
relating to controversial science and

1446
01:02:31,109 --> 01:02:27,910
spirituality a lot of shows up there

1447
01:02:34,079 --> 01:02:31,119
over 350 of them or so all free all

1448
01:02:35,350 --> 01:02:34,089
available for download so do check it